As an Agnostic, I'm personally irritated, not necessarily angered, when a Christian approaches me and says "The Bible says... therefore God is real." This happens quite frequently. Using God as the persuader because they have no other options. But if I'm Agnostic, or Atheist, and I do not follow the beliefs of God, what would be the point of using God to persuade the argument?

In other flaws, I personally believe that the entire concept of debating whether God is real or whether the Wiccan read is genuine, or whether we have three gods to one, whatever the case may be, I think the entire concept of arguing is morally stupid. We should accept one another's beliefs rather than persuade them. It's one thing to discuss beliefs, like "I'm Christian because..." or "God has always been there for me," or "God has never been there for me," whatever. But as it may be, conversations like so always tend to escalate into "God is there for you, therefore you should be there for him".

I agree with you to some extent in that to get through to someone you have to speak their language and not your own, if you know what i mean and therefore a person using Religion as an argument fails to make an impression on agnostic/athiest persons. However i do think that a Religious person sees it as a duty to kind of 'shine the light' on others, kind of.

Your second paragraph, it is the wonder of most religions. Christianity teaches tolerance and it's very highly regarded and thus the famous line, 'to turn the other cheek', however there are some secular states in the US and some towns in UK that simply will NOT allow people of any other religion and basically undermine their own Religion. This is the same for Islam, Muhammed (PBUH) taught that Christians and Jews were welcome in any Muslim countries and they should be treated like guests, tell them about your religion and how you practice it but do not force it on them. Allah said that one may seek revenge upon someone who has done them wrong however if they forgive them and seek no punishment then the reward will be much greater. For example in Afghanistan, i'v talked to people who would happily slain a person from another religion, for nothing because of their warped beliefs on Infidels. Whyyy?!?! :mad:

On the subject of conversion, telling non-Christians about Christianity has been seen as a duty of Christians since the time of Jesus, thus, 'go into the world and make disciples of all nations'. The main point however is, humans may preach and teach, but it is considered to be God who brings the convert to faith. This is the same in Islam aswell, if i am not mistaken.

To end with, my main point is that every Religion will try to say they are supreme and its inevitable that they do so.

We should accept one another's beliefs rather than persuade them.

That's one of the things I cannot STAND about Christianity. It is flawed to the bone.

.........And im forced to be a Christian because of my parents......

Again, I revert to one of my favorite quotes,

"I feel like sometimes that I was born, that I'm not meant for this society because everyone here is a f**king hypocrite. Everybody says they believe in God but they don't do God's work. Everybody counteracts what God is really about. If Jesus was here, do you think Jesus would show me any love? Do you think Jesus would love me? I'm a Muslim, but do you think Jesus would love me ... I think Jesus would have a drink with me and discuss ... why you acting like that? Now, he would be cool. He would talk to me. No Christian ever did that and said in the name of Jesus even ... They'd throw me in jail and write bad articles about me and then go to church on Sunday and say Jesus is a wonderful man and he's coming back to save us. But they don't understand that when he comes back, that these crazy greedy capitalistic men are gonna kill him again."

Its join our religion or we hate you. And most Christians are stuck up in a way. They try so hard to be different and so hard to be the nicest person it makes me sick. So, when they do have a conversation like "God did all these great things for me. What about you?" and that person turns down acceptance of Christ, they ignore that person because he is "of the devil" now.

At least that's how its done here.....

All religion is flawed. You'll find in terms of the Abrahamic faiths that each book is filled with contradictions that do not make sense.

.........And im forced to be a Christian because of my parents......
That would be awkward. My parents don't really give a damn.

All religion is flawed. You'll find in terms of the Abrahamic faiths that each book is filled with contradictions that do not make sense.

The idea is flaws in religious "Debate", not the religion itself although it may simply root back to that.

^^^^Well if you check the Torah, New Testament Bible & Qua'ran. I feel that they are full of contradictions and mistakes.

I don't have a 'religion' but I believe in God. I think that Jesus, Muhammad, Buddah, Ghandi, and all other religious leaders were messangers of God, but so are we all. They just listened to what God was saying instead of listening to other people tell them what God wants. In a book called Conversations With God- Book 1, it says "God is not the creator, he is the watcher" or something like that. It means that God doesnt control what everyone does, but when he see's someone do something that wasn't the best choice, he is disappointed, and he tries to help them make better choices. I think that too many people have wrongly interpeded what God is trying to tell us. That's what made all different religions.

I take what I like from religions, and leave out the stupid shit.....

I take what I like from religions, and leave out the stupid shit.....

lol same.....

im of the Christian faith but not 100

Ike: if you are irritaded with religious threads.......dont be a part of them, its really that simple...

Ike makes the most intellectual religious point I've seen on RW in some time. But I think ranting about how people choose to justify their religious beliefs at the expense of others, is essentially missing the point. Pointing out the inadequacies of religion is sometimes healthy and provocative, but more times it demonstrates an underlying lack of understanding. That lack of understanding permeates through every crevice in modern-day society. We have been brainwashed by storytellers and thieves.

I call them storytellers because there is not a person on the face of this earth who could explain the significance of any religious work, such as the Bible or Quaran, without reference to the literary work itself. We all could pick up any novel or literary work, written by any modern-day author, and give it religious credence. We could further ask that everyone who reads the literary work believe that everything mentioned inside the pages is true. We could tell them that they must believe a fanciful interpretation of the words within that literary work; and if they do not believe that interpretation a severe penalty will be cast upon them. We could weave together 20 or 30 books into one, separating each as a chapter. We could breath life into a fictional character. Give that character a strength, resiliance, and nobility that many people can only seek. They would love the life of that character we have made, and they will, because of human nature, seek to emulate our fictional character we have created. And most important, dependant upon who the storyteller is, our antagonist will assume particular characteristics. His face would look a certain way. His actions would be remniscent of a particular group of people.

The above has been the genesis of every generation of humans. The tribal-elder in African villages would tell stories which awe the persons who hear him. The stories are no different from the things we see on television in this modern age, but more credence is given because the man telling the story is a the elder.

There is no religion who violates this basic rule. The rastafarians in Jamaica -- the dreadlocks as some call them -- used a number of religions including Hindu and Christianity to uplift themselves. They did so by using Ethiopian leader Haile Sallasie. He was a prime candidate because Ethiopia was never colonized by white oppressors; and because the leader could be traced back to the only religion they, otherwise, saw validity in.

And not to digress, but let me point out something to you. The smokin of marijauna was an old Hindu thing. The peace-pipe was passed around amongst the priest of the Hindu faith. Don't believe it's a "black thing" started by us. We actually have it all wrong. There is no religion that would allow such narcotics to be passed amongst the believers. Marijauna was smoked solely so that the religions leaders would forge a link with the teachings of God. It was never, until recently, designed for everybody. The justification for smoking marijauna does not lie in religion or in the fact that the plant comes from the earth. Misconceptions must be dispelled. But back to the topic at hand ...

Religion is about upliftment of certain classes of people at the expense of others. That is its aegis. Always has been, hence the reason there is no notable black religion still in existence. Voodoo, practiced in Haiti has been condemned as the work of the devil, yet its guiding principles are no different from that of Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc. Let us not lose sight of the significant importance of uplifting our own group of people. We should never expect to achieve our totality by using a forum produced to contradict that totality. Blacks and persons of Arab origin cannot benefit from Christianity or Judaism. Whites cannot benefit from Islam. And vice versa.

We should not be blinded by the realities of the situation which surrounds us. But being mindful of it, necessarily means that we do not condemn another group's concerted effort to benefit their cultural and spiritual beliefs. Do you know that "materialism" is a form of spirituality? It is, think about it. We have to find our "core". We have to find what makes our group of people distinct. I do not teach a lesson of separatism. Just love. Love for yourself and the people who share your cultural background.

Before being infiltrated, Africans all over the Continent believed that God was omnipresent. He wasn't a man. He was inanimate. He was everywhere. In everything. Man never prayed to God, or spoke to him. They translated their messages, destined for God, through their ancestory. Their ancestory was their link to God. And through that link, they were God. That is the phenomenal importance of history, of respect for your people. For your mother's mother. Now while most of that religious belief has been watered down by Christianity (to serve the benefit of whites) and Islam (to serve the benefit of arabs), we can feel that connection if we seek to feel it. We respect our history, and that is why we complain so much about the position it has left us in.

Take what you will from my message; but at least remember this: Life doesn't begin and end with you. You represent much more than what any person who lives with you can say. Your destiny is not to be a believer in a faith that has left you stranded, but to be a believer in what you know to be true. That belief may culminate in different ways for different people, but the outcome, the conclusion, is the same. Have respect for religion, if for nothing else, because it represents a vision of upliftment. Do not get consumed wholly in the interpretation of the story. Every story in every religion is the same with minor adjustments.

Ike: if you are irritaded with religious threads.......dont be a part of them, its really that simple...

Wtf.... I didn't mention anything about religious threads. Quit being a dumbass.


And Truth, I'm a bit on lack of sleep, but I'll read more into depth of what you said and give it a worthier reply. pz.

Blacks and persons of Arab origin cannot benefit from Christianity or Judaism
Now while most of that religious belief has been watered down by Christianity (to serve the benefit of whites) and Islam (to serve the benefit of arabs)
Both of the above are wrong because, at the time of origin of them religions were made to suit suit their indigenous population Catholicism for Whites (Didn't get popular untill 400 A.D when it became Romes National religion), and Muslim for the Arabic people....
However with migration religions had to adapt to new populations, such as Catholicism with Black people, and Buddhism with far eastern people(Buddha came from a district of India).

Religion is about upliftment of certain classes of people at the expense of others.
Exactly, however, you confuse class with race...
Even though both are social constructs, there is a differance...
Religion, has always been benifical to the rich, for example Rich people can afford to make shrines within their household, so are seen as more religious.

I will make a formal admission that "classes" was not the word I should have used. On reading the above, and reflecting, I think the word is incorrectly stated, but the context is not.

I do not know how your first paragraph of statements refutes, in any way, the 2 comments I made that you say are incorrect. I've read your statements a number of times and I'm amiss on the points you were trying to make. Please explain more so that I can engage in some type of response.

What I would like for you to do, is answer the following:

(1) What adaptations have the religions you spoke about made in relation to other indiginous cultures? For example: How has Catholicism adopted a stance which embraces blacks?

(2) Apart from what you already considered to be problematic in my above posted comments, do you consider there to be any other inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and falsities present?

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ghetto hog! Gangsta Gangsta at the top of the list!

Very interesting thread, and I feel compelled to share my views in relation to this subject matter...

I'm an idealist, and I believe that Christianity itself is NOT flawed. I believe there is much "false" Christianity on this earth today that turns ppl off to the faith collectively because of their gross misrepresentation of it. I believe that whomever truly adheres to the PRINCIPLES of the bible is a true Christian. I also believe that very few actually do.

That being said, Christianity as established by Christ is all-inclusive. He shunned racial prejudice (one example, speaking to Samaritans and treating them as equals when there was a strong racial hatred of them within the Jewish culture) and commanded his disciples to "preach to ALL the nations"...Christianity was never meant to be constrained by social or political agendas, it is much nobler than that...I believe ppl get too caught up in what they'd like to hear, like to believe is true, and what conforms to their closed minded interpretations of life. Shouldn't the ideals of equality, kindness, self-control and the like be more important than the selfish desires and tendencies of sinful humans?

Just my 2 pennies...I have more to say but I can't find the words right now...

I'll wait until Jake completes his thoughts, and until my questions above are answered before I divulge anything else. I can say that I have some reservations about Jake's view on this; but it can wait.

The flaws are not in the religious 'debate' itself....the flaws are in the 'debator'.

We can all pretty much agree on this. Fact is though, people are ignorant. Especially when it comes to religion. I've said this many times. It's what they've been taught, and most arn't ones to question it since, in most religions, you're taught that it's the almighty truth or whatever. There are some, like you and I, who are willing to question it.

Here's my opinion, and point. Religion is a matter of opinion and nothing more. I used to be a Christian. Then I read alot into Islam and was about to convert, when I had a life changing epiphany. I don't give a fuck about religion. I do believe in a God. I just don't know, nor care, who he/she/it is. Why waste my life searching for an almighty truth, when the point of life is to live it to the fullest?

Fact is, nobody knows who God is. You can read every book, and search your entire life for him. Do you know when you will find him? The day you die.

Everything is revealed in death.

^That is 100% true. Finally someone has said it. Thank you Sadistyk.

I don't have a 'religion' but I believe in God. I think that Jesus, Muhammad, Buddah, Ghandi, and all other religious leaders were messangers of God, but so are we all. They just listened to what God was saying instead of listening to other people tell them what God wants. In a book called Conversations With God- Book 1, it says "God is not the creator, he is the watcher" or something like that. It means that God doesnt control what everyone does, but when he see's someone do something that wasn't the best choice, he is disappointed, and he tries to help them make better choices. I think that too many people have wrongly interpeded what God is trying to tell us. That's what made all different religions.

Interesting.....want to expand....?

Well everything I said is in that book I mentioned. Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch.