The topic this week donated by Orcusante:

Is Hip Hop really advancing or has it's progression in reality been a regression?

The most valid points will get $350 RW cash and after this debate there will be a league table set up for the best debaters week in week out.

Discuss. :)

Definatly Regressing. No new talent is worth listnin to, or no new artist got any talent.

Definatly Regressing. No new talent is worth listnin to, or no new artist got any talent.

That is in terms of the mainstream. The average listener of mainstream rap are Teenagers, most middle class. Middle class teens are known as the biggest trend followers from Rock N Roll in the 50's to Disco in the 70's. As soon as the trend gets old they'll move on and find something new (Emo), but Hip-Hop is flourishing in the underground and fans of underground music no matter what genre tend to be fans for life. The bigger the underground Hip-Hop community gets the more Hip-Hop can grow.

We can not gurantee that in 30-50 years time from now we will still see Hip-Hop conquering the charts, but just like Jazz and Blues now, even though they ain't as popular as they use to be they still have a large loyal life time fan base and that is what has kept Jazz and Blues alive all these years.

hip hop is progressing...in terms of audience and appeal it is definitely progressing...the talent may be lacking but never before has hip hop been more accepted by the wider community...hip hop is growing more diverse and diversity only comes about with expansion...one form/type of hip hop cannot possibly appeal to everybody so hip hop is adapting to include more of the wider community in the target audience and this has promoted its growth

Progression

Hip-Hop has expanded into different subgenres creating a more diversified audience.

you have your

Mixtape/Hardcore rappers
ex: Papoose, Saigon, Murda Mook
they for the most part stay hardcore, and rap about guns and violence

playing to the audience that liked the "gangasta rap" in the day.
beats are based on bass.

Underground Rappers
Reef The Lost Cauze, Last Emperor, Pharoahe Monch
they try to rap for the "culture", they tend to mix there song selection up,
they can switch from hardcore to thoughtfull in one verse
the beats try to have breaks and samples with a good bass.
geared toward anyone that recognizes the talents of rapping

Emo Rappers
Atmosphere, Sage Francis
there raps are emotional, they are for the most part personal, lyrics tend to be metaphorical.
beats are very simple to very complex, uses a good amount of strings.
suburban teens make up the majority of the fan base,

Abstract Rappers
The Anticon Label
they treat rap like abstract art, there lyrics mean different things to different people, there songs tend to say nothing,
there beats are for the most part sapce like.
geared to Nerds

Political Rappers
Immortal tec, Dead Prez, Paris
Rap about politics, for the most part are militant
Beats are varied,
geared toward angry/intelligent african americans

Spoken Word
Saul Williams, Sage Francis,
Poets
play to the coffee house type folks

theres alot more little groups within hip hop, which i don't feel like going on to name, just pointing out that hip hop is growing a much larger fan base, by trying new things out

Hip hop is progressing in terms of its audience, but is regressing from its essence, political deviation (which is how rap started , refer to last poets).

The question is too generalized, so I'll narrow it down a little. Is hip hop usually sending its listeners ethical, worthwhile messages? No, ethical and political themes in mainstream hip hop are stagnant, because the record label owners / rappers are only worried about how to sell as many records as they can. In doing so they are only seperating the bourgiosie (listeners ) from the ruling elite (label owners, rappers), b/c the lower class + middle class ppl who buy their music have to waste their cash on bullshit w/o any real message except to listen to what some conceive as melodic (bullshit), so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Nas is one mainstream rapper that tries to portray the corruption in power of the police state, ghetto mindsets, white oppresion, media's skewed vision on balcks etc. ( hear 2nd childhood, Small world, Ghetto prisoners). But others just go for crunk nonsense that people like to hear in the clubs, but mainly because people have no taste in music. In the underground circuit, Immortal Technique is getting shit done correctly by producing track after track of unbiased, exposing, intellectually stimulating songs that provoke political/philosophical questions important in current events today. Underground is on the rise, but Mainstream is declining.

What really kills hip hop is people stereotyping rap and categorizing all ppl who listen to it as stupid. Just b/c 95% of mainstream shit isn't informative doesn't mean there isn't any good rap out there. If ppl would only take a few minutes to read some good lyrics (nas, I.T.) they might realize that hip hop has alot to offer the upcoming generation

I really don't know what I just wrote but I'm tired now and Im gonna stop

~~UNO~~

valid points

wheres The Spectrum
he will win every debate

Damn, Id really like to post something and I have no intentions of freeposting but, everyone has pretty much said anything Id want to say about hiphop progressing. People dont like to admit it, but fact is that more people listen to what hip hop is today (good beats/catchy hook/etc) that what it was back then (Good Lyricism/depth/etc)

The questions has a yes/no anwer.

HipHop, over the last few years, has progressed in massive amounts, almost exponentially. Up until 50 Cent, the biggest star in HipHop was Eminem. Not alot of people thought anyone would surpass his fame, but 50 did. Along with 50, around the same time and since, many new rappers have come out: Chingy, Ying Yang Twins, Lil Jon's fame, Cham, Paul Wall, etc. The fact there has been so many new rappers lately indicates that HipHop is progressing and is becoming the most popular type of music in the World today. That is a progress, of some sort.

BUT, the fact remains that these new rappers have no great lyrical talent, no awareness of their culture/history and no appreciation of the foundations laid by the past emcees such as Kool Herc, Afrikka, Kane, Rakim, KRS, Brand Nubian and etc. They are almost polar opposite. These emcees crafted HipHop and made it an art. This is to the extent that many of these past generations are now considered underground emcees, to some extent. This is the regression of HipHop.

So... the answer depends on what you view as progression. It can be said that the fact that HipHop is the most popular type of music out and that the biggest artist in the world is a rapper is progress from the past where these were dominated by Rock-n-Roll. But it can slo be argued that they are not aware of the issues I've raised, in terms of awareness/appreciation/lyrics, and it is therefore a form of regression.

Actually, hip hop has progressed...

Nowadays, rappers are shooting for more lyrical value and more feel-good songs, just like the early 90's..

Also, to anyone who thinks the South or any of these non-punchline rappers hurts hip-hop is closed-minded. They rap about what they know. Now, if I'm correct, hip hop started off as a creative expression of the struggles in the ghetto, growing up, etc. Basically, back then, rappers did songs on what they experienced and the same happens today.

It's just that, today, more people rap about what other people experience, instead of what they know, which is the only reason I can think of people saying hip-hop is regresssing. Why? Because everyone sounds the same,a nd hip hop is supposed to be the expression of every person's inner differences...

I definately think it has progressed because as mainstream hip hop grows, which in some peoples minds is hip hop going backwards it does mean underground hip hop is growing which is forwards.

Ok the reasoning behind this is how many people here especially the younger generation that grew up when hip hop was more mainstream can say that they didnt get into hip hop through mainstream artists, be it Tupac or Eminem as it was for me if it wasn't for mainstream most people probably would never have heard any hip hop at all.

Ok so maybe some people get to liking the mainstream stuff that we now see as bullshit and never bother to listen to underground or decide that they dont like it and in many ways that is a bad thing but in some ways it isn't because they carry on supporting 50 cent and Nelly which keeps them at the top of the charts so more and more people start to listen to hip hop of one kind or another.

Ok so all of these new people are listening to there hip pop and well how it went for me is i started to get into stuff like Nas and Talib Kweli and stuff and realised that it was much better music with meaning behind it rather than just something to nod your head to and from there you get into underground music and start appreciating the lyrics more and understanding hip hop as a culture.

So maybe people see mainstream hip hop and think of it as stupid and pointless and all about how hard somebody is and how rich they are but fuck them if they don't wanna find out the truth its there loss.

Good responses, uppin' for some more.

S.O.S. shits all over this thread....:(

and again.

ends friday. :D